Bleach Episode Discussion

[-Omega-]

Originally Posted by Thornqueen

@ Artofcreation I got flue, too lazy to type "the" :P and written like this sounds funny in my language..

Bildungsroman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ah, you're European that's why I didn't understand. I was wondering what that word was myself. Hmm, I wouldn't call Bleach a coming of age story though since Ichigo's character doesn't develop.

[Mreaper]

Seeing as I'm currently doing university studies and English Literature is a subject, I can confidently say that Bleach does not cover the Bildungsroman format.
It does not follow Ichigo from a young age, all that is told in flashbacks, which is the primary problem. He has changed a great deal from then, but it was never told, just stated. Character change has also never been very important. Ichigo hasn't had to change, he already has all the qualities he needs(when he can muster them for powerups).
This is rather a "quest" story collection. It's not about personal growth, it's about a guy going off doing cool stuff. Oh, and his friends tag along and do cool stuff in the background.

[Thornqueen]

@ Omega, the Americans have the same term

@ Mreaper, you should be more confident when you finish those studies. If you read my previous post, I said that Tite Kubo didn't go that far, but the term applies quite well. Ichigo is doing cool stuff, as are his friends, but he's surely developing (way of thinking, bankai, height, shinigami attire and t-shirts :P ); re-read the definition. Bildungsroman is a classification, not a literary procedure. How does the author choose to tell the story - flashback, continuous or whatever- is another story..

[Mreaper]

@Thornqueen, go read Jane Eyre. I dare you.

His way of thinking is the only valid example in your list, and it hasn't changed that much.
Ichigo's story is not told through flashbacks. We were given some tidbits about his past, but we haven't actually seen Ichigo grow up.
The Ichigo we start out with is pretty much the Ichigo we end up with. There is no gradual and difficult achieving of maturity. It looked like there might be for a while, but it fizzled.
By the end of the anime, what great emotional and philosophical change has Ichigo gone through?
None.
He has not dealt with or even noticed Orihime's affections.
He has not accepted and overcome his inner hollow, partly because it conveniently disappeared after using FGT.
He has not become content with being normal, but instead craved power. For a noble cause, certainly, but nonetheless he merely wished to be what he was.
He has not learned to put trust in his friends, but instead has to handle everything himself.
How has he assimilated into society and accepted its values?
Normal society: not at all. Because really, he doesn't need to. He's just an average teenager, not a dunce or an outcast. Which also eliminates two staples of the genre.
Soul Society: complete reversal. Not only has he not accepted its values, he went around beating up its prominent members and forced them to see things his way.

[kannazuki]

Originally Posted by Thornqueen

LOL

have you ever heard of the term bildungsroman?
I don`t see it like you say, and even though Kubo might have not gone zat far, is not that simple...

Bleach isn't anywhere near a bildungsroman. Mreaper did a fine job of pointing out why and you don't need a whole university degree to know this, but if it matters that much to you, guess what my major was?

Bleach has got zero in common with real bildungsroman like Stand By Me, To Kill a Mockingbird, or Good Will Hunting. (Actually, some favourites ones of mine include Un Prophète, Persepolis, Cidade de Deus, and Pan's Labyrinth.) All of these focus on the events that change one or more characters during his/her formative years.

As was pointed out earlier, Ichigo however does not change. Even this lovely lady specifically says so here:

Spoiler

Bleach is about concept, not story. (Kubo's interviews practically scream it out.) Again, nothing wrong with that for people who prefer concept to story. The problem for some is that the first arc had a relatively strong story to it, and a lot of people have hung on since then, expecting the story to be just as complex as that, and perhaps seeking further character development. Obviously, those expectations not being met has disgruntled those people.

also, not sure i understood za tease..

You said in your earlier post that fights/'splosions = story. In the more recent post, you say you pay attention to "the story" which "containts"" fights/'splosions. Something doesn't add up there.

If you read my previous post, I said that Tite Kubo didn't go that far, but the term applies quite well. Ichigo is doing cool stuff, as are his friends, but he's surely developing (way of thinking, bankai, height, shinigami attire and t-shirts :P ); re-read the definition. Bildungsroman is a classification, not a literary procedure. How does the author choose to tell the story - flashback, continuous or whatever- is another story..

And how do you think a bildungsroman is classified? Are you trying to claim here that physical growth and or changes of clothing are sufficient to call a story a bildungsroman? LOL!

You're missing Mreaper's point. He's saying that the portion of Ichigo's life in which we know he changed as a person is not portrayed during the course of Bleach's timeline; only static moments from it are portrayed in flashback. If we saw how Ichigo's character changed during that earlier point in his life, you'd have a leg to stand on here, but Kubo has never shown this to us at all, let alone based a story around it (which would also be necessary for it to be classified bildungsroman).

[-Omega-]

Originally Posted by Thornqueen

@ Omega, the Americans have the same term

Spoiler

You said "it sounds funny in my language." That means that you speak another language which may indicate that you are from another continent or country. The chances of you being from Europe are extremely larger than say Asia or Africa (though I could have considered Canada or Australia). Since that word is also used by the British, it is only natural that America would adopt it. I haven't heard of that word (or at least I don't remember it). Considering that you didn't correct me, it seems my guess was right on. Though this has nothing to do with that statement. I'm just trying to reason why I'm ignorant of that word.

What is there left to address in this thread?

[artofcreation]

Originally Posted by kannazuki

Spoiler

Bleach isn't anywhere near a bildungsroman. Mreaper did a fine job of pointing out why and you don't need a whole university degree to know this, but if it matters that much to you, guess what my major was?

Bleach has got zero in common with real bildungsroman like Stand By Me, To Kill a Mockingbird, or Good Will Hunting. (Actually, some favourites ones of mine include Un Prophète, Persepolis, Cidade de Deus, and Pan's Labyrinth.) All of these focus on the events that change one or more characters during his/her formative years.

As was pointed out earlier, Ichigo however does not change. Even this lovely lady specifically says so here:

Spoiler

Bleach is about concept, not story. (Kubo's interviews practically scream it out.) Again, nothing wrong with that for people who prefer concept to story. The problem for some is that the first arc had a relatively strong story to it, and a lot of people have hung on since then, expecting the story to be just as complex as that, and perhaps seeking further character development. Obviously, those expectations not being met has disgruntled those people.You said in your earlier post that fights/'splosions = story. In the more recent post, you say you pay attention to "the story" which "containts"" fights/'splosions. Something doesn't add up there. And how do you think a bildungsroman is classified? Are you trying to claim here that physical growth and or changes of clothing are sufficient to call a story a bildungsroman? LOL!

You're missing Mreaper's point. He's saying that the portion of Ichigo's life in which we know he changed as a person is not portrayed during the course of Bleach's timeline; only static moments from it are portrayed in flashback. If we saw how Ichigo's character changed during that earlier point in his life, you'd have a leg to stand on here, but Kubo has never shown this to us at all, let alone based a story around it (which would also be necessary for it to be classified bildungsroman).

can i just say u are the most fundamental member i have seen here..

[Taro Misaki]

Originally Posted by artofcreation

can i just say u are the most fundamental member i have seen here..

Second that and adding thorough as well. Too bad she doesn't visit the OP ep discussion thread aka the spam paradise.

[-Omega-]

I'd say that Bleach has a story (or at least it had one). It just doesn't have a plot. The back of the Bleach Box Set confirms this.

[supermegasonic]

Originally Posted by -Omega-

I'd say that Bleach has a story (or at least it had one). It just doesn't have a plot. The back of the Bleach Box Set confirms this.

totally agree, and also mreapers post was amazing, though i have no idea what this bildungsroman thing is...