Who do you think is the best Sensei in Naruto?

[-Omega-]

In a sense, Orochimaru had the right idea when he wanted to dispose of the orphans. If he was as corrupt as he was after the war, then he probably would have probably remained loyal to him vests how it ended up with Jiraiya. Of course, this is all speculation.

[theOrator]

Originally Posted by Vincent1875

Yes, because I'm sure that Jiraiya was proud of two students killing him and razing down his village. In Kakashi's defense Sasuke was thoroughly screwed up before he ever laid hands on him and events just spiraled in a manner that made it worse.

One could easily make the same argument about Nagato as well. After all, he had seen his parents and many of his countrymen murdered right in front of him during the various wars that took place in Amegakure. So not really much of a defense there, for either Jiraiya or Kakashi.

[Vincent1875]

One could try. Seeing something bad doesn't automatically mean you're screwed up. Just like every veteran that sees combat doesn't come back with PTSD. Nagato didn't really flip till his friend committed suicide on him years later(which was after Jiraiya finished 3 years of training him). Sasuke on the other hand was already obsessed and repressing memories before Kakashi met him and he only had a few months to work on them before Orochimaru and Itachi came in to worsen things.

[artofcreation]

Gai..
it's never ending fun with him..

[theOrator]

Originally Posted by Vincent1875

One could try. Seeing something bad doesn't automatically mean you're screwed up. Just like every veteran that sees combat doesn't come back with PTSD. Nagato didn't really flip till his friend committed suicide on him years later(which was after Jiraiya finished 3 years of training him). Sasuke on the other hand was already obsessed and repressing memories before Kakashi met him and he only had a few months to work on them before Orochimaru and Itachi came in to worsen things.

And yet Sasuke developed that obsession and murderous intention from having seen the aftermath of his parents and clan being killed. Again, not really any different from Nagato, except that one took significantly longer (or perhaps had better control over his emotions) than the other. In the end, same deal, both had to deal with being faced with the deaths of the people closest to them.

[Vincent1875]

Originally Posted by theOrator

And yet Sasuke developed that obsession and murderous intention from having seen the aftermath of his parents and clan being killed. Again, not really any different from Nagato, except that one took significantly longer (or perhaps had better control over his emotions) than the other. In the end, same deal, both had to deal with being faced with the deaths of the people closest to them.

Why are you saying "and yet?" Half my post was dedicated to saying that two people can go through the same(or similar) thing with one not being as effected. Thus my example of combat veterans with post dramatic stress disorder. Six guys could go into combat together with only one having PTSD afterwards. Sasuke and Nagato going through something similar isn't an excuse unless we see that it has the same effect on them both. Nagato definitely hated leaf ninja afterwards but he wasn't obsessed or revenge driven.

Then there's the matter of when the sensei came in. Jiraiya came in while Nagato wasn't that bad mentally and taught him for 3 years. Kakashi came in after Sasuke was already pretty screwed up and only had him for a few months. Not the same deal at all.

Now you can argue that how the students turned out isn't all that reflective of the sensei. That's fine. But if we're arguing from the perspective that it is then Nagato wasn't as bad and Jiraiya clearly had a lot more opportunities to influence him.

[theOrator]

Originally Posted by Vincent1875

Why are you saying "and yet?" Half my post was dedicated to saying that two people can go through the same(or similar) thing with one not being as effected. Thus my example of combat veterans with post dramatic stress disorder. Six guys could go into combat together with only one having PTSD afterwards. Sasuke and Nagato going through something similar isn't an excuse unless we see that it has the same effect on them both. Nagato definitely hated leaf ninja afterwards but he wasn't obsessed or revenge driven.

Then there's the matter of when the sensei came in. Jiraiya came in while Nagato wasn't that bad mentally and taught him for 3 years. Kakashi came in after Sasuke was already pretty screwed up and only had him for a few months. Not the same deal at all.

Now you can argue that how the students turned out isn't all that reflective of the sensei. That's fine. But if we're arguing from the perspective that it is then Nagato wasn't as bad and Jiraiya clearly had a lot more opportunities to influence him.

That is the point we're arguing, but you're trying to drive a distinction between the two by introducing information that is, to borrow your commonly used word, irrelevant, such as when either became screwed up. My point still remains that you can't fault one sensei for how his student turned out, after said student was no longer in his care btw, but make allowances for another one because his student happened to be pyschologically messed up prior to that student being placed in his care.

Also, just because Nagato didn't display outright homicidal tendencies early on doesn't mean he wasn't as affected by death as Sasuke was. And while I will concede to your point that both handled those respective situations with different ideaologies, that doesn't change the fact that you can still draw at least a few parallels between the two.

[Vincent1875]

Lol and I went out of my way to remove the word from my post too. You didn't exactly give any reason as to why you think the distinction is irrelevant like I'd do though. Here's a reason why it is completely relevant. Sasuke was screwed up for almost half his life and set in his ways before being placed under Kakashi's care. Nagato on the other hand was screwed up after and in spite of Jiraiya teaching him all he planned to. There's the time they had with them that plays into that. Jiraiya had three years while Kakashi had a few months(where Sasuke's mental state was compromised by both Oro and Itachi). It would be like trying to compare two school systems by taking a student from each. Both people failed a similar test but one was a 6th grade drop out and the other a high school graduate. That's not an equal representation of both systems.

It also means that we can't assume that he was. Nagato was shown being relatively normal till Yahiko's death. We can't just assume that he was as messed up as Sasuke just because he experienced something similar. He wasn't really showing any of the signs that Sasuke did.

[JustinGallimore]

I say Jiraiya a very important character from naruto.

[theOrator]

Originally Posted by Vincent1875

Lol and I went out of my way to remove the word from my post too. You didn't exactly give any reason as to why you think the distinction is irrelevant like I'd do though. Here's a reason why it is completely relevant. Sasuke was screwed up for almost half his life and set in his ways before being placed under Kakashi's care. Nagato on the other hand was screwed up after and in spite of Jiraiya teaching him all he planned to. There's the time they had with them that plays into that. Jiraiya had three years while Kakashi had a few months(where Sasuke's mental state was compromised by both Oro and Itachi). It would be like trying to compare two school systems by taking a student from each. Both people failed a similar test but one was a 6th grade drop out and the other a high school graduate. That's not an equal representation of both systems.

It also means that we can't assume that he was. Nagato was shown being relatively normal till Yahiko's death. We can't just assume that he was as messed up as Sasuke just because he experienced something similar. He wasn't really showing any of the signs that Sasuke did.

No, I gave plenty of reason, you're just ignoring it. For one, it's erroneous of you to assume that just because Nagato showed no outward sign of being messed up like Sasuke did, that he was all well and good and Sasuke wasn't. That's like taking two boys that were picked on growing up in different environments. One acted out by torturing animals, while the other just came home and secluded himself in his room and wrote suicidal thoughts in his journal everyday. That because the latter seemed "normal" while the other displayed outward aggression, that the "normal" one wouldn't eventually become a serial killer one day. You can't say both are different just because they didn't act the same in a relatively similar frame of time.

You also ignore the fact that, aside from his determination to kill his brother, Sasuke seemed relatively normal too. He may have been aloof in the beginning, but he had genuinely warmed up, particularly to Naruto and Sakura, prior to his defection. His run-in with Itachi was the only thing that set off that bottled up aggression. Again, just like Nagato, he seemed relatively stable on the outside, but it only took one major catalyst (Yahiko's death), to spark that. That anger and resentment still festered in both of them, despite whatever time either student may have spent with their respective teacher.

This is why I say the timing that each teacher had with each student is irrelevant, the parallels are still there in spite of that, so there's still no justification why one teacher should get a pass and the other shouldn't.