Naruto Manga Discussion Thread 2: It's a Wonderful Sasuke

[theOrator]

Originally Posted by kannazuki

I believe the purpose of Danzou's character is to show that unethical, underhanded decisions, even when made under the guise of a "greater good," can lead to serious repercussions. In the case of greenlighting the Uchiha slaughter, Sasuke's hatred and vengeance is the consequence. Basically, he sowed the seeds of his own destruction in the way that he led his life and he was taking the village down that path as well, like much of the ninja world. It all goes back to that cycle of hatred that Naruto's trying to put an end to.Revenge isn't logical in the first place. But what you're saying here makes no sense to me. If the order had nothing to do with it, then why didn't Sasuke just take it out on Konoha before he ever found out it was something the village leaders were in on? If some missing nin like Hidan was for some reason the one who slaughtered the Uchiha, would Sasuke have targeted that person's original village? I don't think so-- not unless he was told they ordered it to happen. Sasuke's emotional reasoning simply led him to judge the people of Konoha guilty by association. Sasuke's thinking is the same as that of a terrorist who attacks innocent citizens, believing they deserve it because just they're "supporting" whoever they have a grievance with. In the terrorist's mind, it doesn't matter that those people are probably ignorant of whatever issue s/he has or even that some of them might be sympathetic. It's just collective punishment no matter what.

That last part is exactly the point that I've been making, the villagers themselves have no connection or influence on the village leader's decisions. Most of them aren't even aware of those decisions or that they even exist. So again, why involve the village in his revenge at all? If there's no connection between the leaders' decision and the villagers themselves, then the whole "guilty by association" thing goes out of the window. Another interesting note is that Danzo's actions concerning the security of the village, and the actions Sasuke intends to undertake, aren't all that dissimilar. They're both terrorists in that their actions tend to follow the guidelines of sacrificing the innocent in order to fulfill their own goals.

In Danzo's case, he was willing to hang back and leave the village to fend for itself so that he could emerge to take over, not caring how many innocent non-shinobi people got caught in the middle. Sasuke's willing to destroy a whole village and all of the people in it based solely on the decision of 3 individuals who kept it hidden from said villagers. The only difference being the motivation of those goals. In my opinion, you can't really judge one and defend the other.

[narusasu1]

Danzo was a coward he hid to wait and let others fight and die so he could take the position he wanted but did not deserve.
Sasuke is insane basically and because the orginal cause of his path happened when he was 8 then his emotional reasoning would still be at that level same reason he seems to act that age when Itachi showed back up part of him did not mature past that event. He is not logical when it comes to his revenge he just wants to make the leaf go through the same thing his clan went through, viewing it from an 8 year old perspective "Why did my clan and family have to die why everyone else in the leaf got to live and be happy, well I will change that hmph!" In a nutshell. Could also look at it from Nagato's pov, "They will know my Pain" Nagato was another who suffered much loss as a child and reacted violent although not in control of it at the start. Sasuke wants the village to suffer the same fate as his clan he wants them all to know the pain that was caused to him and Itachi. There is also the fact that he would most likely have to fight many of the leaf in the first place to even get to the elders it is not like they come out often.

[Stone-Free]

Sasuke isn't insane, but he's definitely let the resentment trump his logic. Kind of like when you're angry about something and when it's proven that you're wrong, you get even more angry and decide to go all out against everything/everyone.

[kannazuki]

Originally Posted by Narutos pimp

I'm looking forward to Itachi's past next.

Me too!

Originally Posted by theOrator

That last part is exactly the point that I've been making, the villagers themselves have no connection or influence on the village leader's decisions.

Yes, but tell that to Sasuke.

It's ridiculous to try to apply logic to his revenge scheme when it's based in a perspective warped and twisted by pain, anger, and hatred. Emotional reasoning is not logical.

Most of them aren't even aware of those decisions or that they even exist. So again, why involve the village in his revenge at all? If there's no connection between the leaders' decision and the villagers themselves, then the whole "guilty by association" thing goes out of the window.

lol... No it doesn't. He's not making a rational decision here, he's thinking emotionally and like a terrorist* (see below in red). He does not see the villagers as unrelated to his torment. He sees them as guilty parties as well. Misguided though it is, that's his reality.

Another interesting note is that Danzo's actions concerning the security of the village, and the actions Sasuke intends to undertake, aren't all that dissimilar. They're both terrorists in that their actions tend to follow the guidelines of sacrificing the innocent in order to fulfill their own goals.*

Yes. I find both Danzou's way of life, and Sasuke's revenge plot reprehensible. I don't see what the relevance of this is, exactly?

Anyway, about terrorists:

Spoiler

The way they see it, they are not killing "innocent people." They see their victims as silent supporters of whoever it is they have the grievance with. Even knowing that the people have no knowledge of whatever the terrorist's grievance is (or that they might be sympathetic if they did) doesn't matter. The terrorist uses *emotional reasoning* to judge them as guilty parties for working under/giving money to/legitimizing whoever it is they have a grievance with. I mean think about it-- what group of people has ever actually decided to kill people that they believed were innocent for political reasons? Sasuke, in his pain/anger/hate warped thinking. It's the kind of thinking that gets fuelled by more and more irrational ideas, such as that the people's ignorance is something they should be judged for, in and of itself. That's the kind of thinking Kishi is getting at with Sasuke's character. He's not literally insane as a character. His thinking with regard to finding justice for his clan is just totally warped.

In Danzo's case, he was willing to hang back and leave the village to fend for itself so that he could emerge to take over, not caring how many innocent non-shinobi people got caught in the middle. Sasuke's willing to destroy a whole village and all of the people in it based solely on the decision of 3 individuals who kept it hidden from said villagers. The only difference being the motivation of those goals. In my opinion, you can't really judge one and defend the other.

What? When did I defend either of them? I've defended the Uchiha clan that got slaughtered but never once have I defended Sasuke's revenge plot. I only talked about what he was probably thinking. Character analysis, you know? Understanding what he's thinking is not the same thing as defending/sympathizing.

[Mreaper]

To be fair though, Danzo acted quite correctly from a strategic perspective.
He was faced with a situation where a near-invincible foe was rampaging through the village, looking to capture Naruto to use the Kyuubi as a weapon of mass destruction.
So instead of putting the enemy's objective in his path and wasting military personel in a futile attempt to defeat him, he ensured that Naruto was out of Pain's reach(albeit that failed), and that even if the village was seemingly destroyed, there would be people left to rebuild.
That he could wrest political power to himself was really just icing on the cake.

[kannazuki]

With regard to his actions during the Pain attack, the only thing I fault Danzou for was killing the poor messenger toad. I can see both sides of it:

Tsunade side: Naruto was doing that training specifically to get stronger and he's technically supposed to be their secret weapon. (Tsunade used more mushy terms, I think.)

Danzou side: How can we put their target right in front of them? We need to reserve him for future situations. (Although I believe Danzou put it in less humanizing terms.)

In the end, Danzou was wrong because of Pain's frightening interrogation abilities, but I can't judge him for it since he seems to have honestly thought that wouldn't happen.

Now they're fighting a war that Gaara, of all people a former jinchuuriki and a friend of Naruto, originally insisted they keep secret from Naruto so he wouldn't endanger himself (or the rest of the world) by getting caught. It was a similar decision, made with everyone's best interests at heart. But it seems the same thing is happening again. They needed Naruto there. But Naruto also needs everyone else, thankfully, and that's why this isn't Fairy Tail. lol...

[Mreaper]

Well, no, if this was Fairy Tail there would be a giant robot.

And Tsunade's speech was stuff about having faith in Naruto and stuff. To be honest, Danzo's problem here is that he's too realistic. He isn't genre savvy, and thus doesn't know that the protagonist will pull a crazy powerup that no one else could in order to defeat an antagonist.

[mariorive24]

Hi, I just dropped in to say that I'm lazy! My post has no other purpose!

[narusasu1]

No Danzo did not want Naruto to come save the day he wanted the village to suffer and hoped Tsunade would die so he could be hokage he pretty well said that. He was a selfish coward stragedy my ass he just was not willing to risk his ass for anyone else he only cared about getting the position of hokage but as soon as things got wary at the summit he skipped out then he attacked those following him which at that point made him a rogue nin and in the same boat as Sasuke so who should care that Sasuke killed him a rogue killing a rogue pfft.

I don't support what Sasuke does either but his anger I can understand, Danzo was just power hungry and thought that he was the only one who could run things despite the fact he would not put himself in danger for the sake of anyone, he offered to do so once in the past only after his rival did and showed him up. Danzo is a person I can not stand. The only character I disliked more then him was Oro because he just plain out gave me the creeps but I see Danzo pretty much the same as Oro out for himself and evil.

Sasuke is full of hate and out for revenge but revenge is what he has been taught to do ever since that tragic event, so it is not that hard to see why it was so easy for Tobi to switch his goal over to Kohona after killing Itachi did not leave him with the feeling he expected it to and learning the truth. He now feels that Kohona took everything from him and he resents those families got to live and be happy when his had to be slaughtered. It is wrong but hate blinds people and makes them crazy.

[Mreaper]

Danzo did not believe Naruto could save the day. And why should he? It was only through learning an alternate use of Sage Mode combined with the Kyuubi taking over that he managed to beat Pain. If Minato's seal had not pulled Naruto back from the brink, Kurama would have destroyed the village himself.

Above all, Danzo was a strategist. He handled the threats that Konoha's citizens never knew existed, that the regular ANBU wouldn't touch.
That kind of management isn't easy, and he didn't get any thanks for it either. Sure it was dirty work, but in a world where the dominant form of military power is made up of ninjas, it's also necessary. Throwing your reserve troops at an enemy without a means to defeat him isn't brave, it's stupid.

And Naru, attacking your pursuers does not make one a rogue nin. A terrible diplomat perhaps, but rogue nins are people like Akatsuki, who desert their villages to either go independent or join a criminal organization.