Naruto Manga Discussion Thread 2: It's a Wonderful Sasuke

[Mreaper]

@Kanna, "no one" seems to be pretty context heavy here. It appears that no one in leadership trusted the Uchiha, but Tobi never gives any examples of the townspeople acting out any discrimination.

I'll go on my interpretation on Tobi's words for the time being. Hopefully Itachi will reveal things we didn't know.

[theOrator]

Originally Posted by kannazuki

Well we can't pick and choose. I'm happy to acknowledge the possibility he may be exaggerating or flat out lying about the prejudice thing, but then you guys shouldn't argue genocide was "justified" based on his words, as if they're the gospel truth.Again, depends on whether you believe Tobi. But I can't imagine the Uchiha wanting to stage a coup for no reason at all. If they were that power-hungry and cared so little about peace, Madara wouldn't have been disowned by them and stripped of his title as clan leader.

Then I guess it's a good thing I've already stated that I don't treat Tobi's word as the gospel truth. But his words, however suspect they may be, are the only side of the Uchiha story we have to go off of at the moment. And in his words, Itachi felt that the massacre was the only option left to prevent a greater catastrophe, i.e. another war. As for Madara, well I highly doubt the rest of the clan was ambitious as him. Recall that by the time the village was formed, the Uchiha were simply tired of fighting, not necessarily because they coveted peace or didn't want power. Madara's dis-ownment seems to have stemmed from the fact that he simply wasn't satisfied with the truce, he wanted control over the whole village too.

[Mreaper]

I'd also like to point out that the Uchiha of Madara's time =/= The Uchiha of Itachi's time.

[Urary]

Originally Posted by Mreaper

I'd also like to point out that the Uchiha of Madara's time =/= The Uchiha of Itachi's time.

Or are they?

[Mreaper]

Well, i guess time travel isn't completely out of the picture in Naruto...

[Stone-Free]

Originally Posted by narusasu1

agrees with Kanna

@Stone Tobi controlling everyone would be boring

If anything, it would be interesting because it's not a typical ending for this type of manga.

[kannazuki]

Originally Posted by Mreaper

@Kanna, "no one" seems to be pretty context heavy here. It appears that no one in leadership trusted the Uchiha, but Tobi never gives any examples of the townspeople acting out any discrimination.

I'll go on my interpretation on Tobi's words for the time being. Hopefully Itachi will reveal things we didn't know.

When I look at it in context, it makes much more sense that "no one" means "no one," especially since the comment is immediately followed with "then the discrimination began." Was that only by the leadership too? How could the leadership discriminate further after the clan was already forcibly relocated?

Indeed, hopefully Itachi will. But does he even know that Danzou and Tobi met up around that time?

Originally Posted by theOrator

Then I guess it's a good thing I've already stated that I don't treat Tobi's word as the gospel truth. But his words, however suspect they may be, are the only side of the Uchiha story we have to go off of at the moment. And in his words, Itachi felt that the massacre was the only option left to prevent a greater catastrophe, i.e. another war. As for Madara, well I highly doubt the rest of the clan was ambitious as him. Recall that by the time the village was formed, the Uchiha were simply tired of fighting, not necessarily because they coveted peace or didn't want power. Madara's dis-ownment seems to have stemmed from the fact that he simply wasn't satisfied with the truce, he wanted control over the whole village too.

You may say that but any time I've said there could be falsehood involved, instead of addressing that possibility directly, you keep saying that I shouldn't assume such, based on one known lie (actually two, if he really isn't Madara). Then you go on to make the assumption that his testimony is correct in order to defend the idea that a genocide was justified, and assume that Itachi's judgment was unquestionably sound, since he participated in this. But as NS has repeatedly pointed out, this is the guy who made his little brother into a hate-fuelled avenger in the first place. It didn't take much for Tobi to focus Sasuke's rage on Konoha, thanks to Itachi (who now admits himself that this way of influencing Sasuke was wrong). Also, Itachi was supposed to be the one keeping an eye on Tobi, so when he got his brother to kill him, who was supposed to hold Tobi to his promise to leave Konoha alone (or at the very least, keep tabs on him)? Danzou? lol...

Originally Posted by Mreaper

I'd also like to point out that the Uchiha of Madara's time =/= The Uchiha of Itachi's time.

Maybe so. However they also thought to rebel after Madara left, if Tobi's words are true. I think there are probably more similarities to the Uchiha's past and present resistance movements than differences, since both movements, according to Tobi anyway, were more or less based on the same grounds.

Originally Posted by Stone-Free

If anything, it would be interesting because it's not a typical ending for this type of manga.

Hmm. That would leave the door open for a sequel though. Something I'm not so sure I'd want to see...

[Mreaper]

Originally Posted by kannazuki

Indeed, hopefully Itachi will. But does he even know that Danzou and Tobi met up around that time?

He had interactions with both, so he should know. IF they "met up" that is.
Tobi simply says he hasn't seen Danzo since the massacre. Now, I don't know exactly what Japanese term was used, but it leaves a lot open to interpretation.
Did they speak? Did they merely observe each other? Did Danzo know who Tobi was?

[kannazuki]

久しぶりだな、ダンゾウ。。。 hisashiburi da na, danzou...
うちはの事件以来だな。。。 uchiha no jiken irai da na...

"It's been a long time hasn't it, Danzou? Since the Uchiha affair*, right?"
*("affair" or incident, plot, scandal, etc.)

Yes, I did acknowledge it's not conclusive but it's definitely suspicious. And While both Danzou and Itachi should have each known the other was aware of Tobi's presence, it's entirely possible that Itachi thought Danzou didn't know, or vice versa. In any case, at the very least it seems both Danzou and Tobi must have seen each other (even if they didn't speak or Danzou didn't know who he was). But I doubt it's only going to be something as minor as seeing each other from a distance or whatever.

[theOrator]

Originally Posted by kannazuki

You may say that but any time I've said there could be falsehood involved, instead of addressing that possibility directly, you keep saying that I shouldn't assume such, based on one known lie (actually two, if he really isn't Madara). Then you go on to make the assumption that his testimony is correct in order to defend the idea that a genocide was justified, and assume that Itachi's judgment was unquestionably sound, since he participated in this. But as NS has repeatedly pointed out, this is the guy who made his little brother into a hate-fuelled avenger in the first place. It didn't take much for Tobi to focus Sasuke's rage on Konoha, thanks to Itachi (who now admits himself that this way of influencing Sasuke was wrong). Also, Itachi was supposed to be the one keeping an eye on Tobi, so when he got his brother to kill him, who was supposed to hold Tobi to his promise to leave Konoha alone (or at the very least, keep tabs on him)? Danzou? lol...

No, I'm not saying you shouldn't assume anything, as I admittedly don't fully trust Nobi's words, that would mean that I'm also making assumptions. See how this works? Both of us are forming opinions based on what little content we've been given in regards to the "incident", so I don't really see what the problem is. Or am I to believe that you're the only one allowed to have an opinion, without seeing the other side's point, and I'm not? Especially since you've also yet to directly address my points of there being nothing in the series to suggest that Nobi/Itachi/Danzo were lying about the incident, except for the fact that each of them have lied at some point on other matters before; or that we don't know what exactly the Uchiha wanted in the negotiations, or that they even tried to negotiate at all. Bit of a "pot calling the kettle black" situation we seem to have going on here.