Naruto Manga Discussion Thread 2: It's a Wonderful Sasuke

[narusasu1]

Danzo was willing to expend anyone including civilians just like he was waiting for the damage Pain would do so he could take over as hokage, and so much for what he told Itachi about protecting Sasuke, as soon as Danzo got the title he put Sasuke on the black list and Sasuke had killed no one at that point that was not already on the black list.

He kept ties with Oro he probably knew about Oro's plans to attack the 3rd would not doubt it, he always seem to be no where around when the village was being attacked.

I also would not doubt that Danzo was behind encouraging the Uchiha's to revolt, he wanted those eyes and he had Oro implant them for him, wonder what Oro got out of that deal, never seen Oro using any eyes he just wanted Sasuke.

He killed the messenger toad, and I don't believe he done it to protect their weapon (Naruto) I think he wanted to make sure they would fail and Tsunade would die, I think he feared that Naruto might be successful, especially seeing how much Tsunade apparently believed and relied on him.

He did not care about the people of the village he did not care if they died, and not just shinobi's but anyone that got in the way of what he wanted, not what the village wanted, not what was best for the village, what he wanted, he wanted power and control, he thought he could do best, but anyone who sees everyone as expendable tools, and does no fighting himself, is nothing but a underhanded, coward who is power hungry to excel his old friend who he could never even compare to.

Originally Posted by theOrator

I've actually read a couple of good DBZ stories, even though I'm not all that into the fandom. But while Naruto does have the most stories on fanfiction, a good many of them are pretty subpar.

Also, Yu Yu Hakusho is this:

Watch Yu Yu Hakusho Online | Anime Episodes | Reviews | Images

Most fanfic are subpar in general too many kids trying to write about topics they probably have no personal experience in, they are in for a shock when they are introduced to reality vs fantasy lol.

Originally Posted by Urary

Sasuke is way uglier than Danzou in both personality and appearance

Urary this makes me really concerned about your taste in men

[kannazuki]

Originally Posted by dain6492

danzo had the most realistic ninja mindset in this whole show and ppl bash the character for it

Always someone has to say this, as if this series is supposed to be about realistic ninjas.

@Vincent:

Spoiler

Originally Posted by Vincent1875

Danzou not being nice doesn't automatically put him with Orochimaru.

Huh? Are you responding to me with that sentence?

Danzou sacrificing the odd loyal person or two for the greater sake of the village doesn't mean anything.

In the part I think you're replying to here, I was talking about situations like when Danzou killed the messenger toad. (You might say we shouldn't care because he's not human, but that's not how they see things in Naruto's world.) Danzou didn't know Pain would be so difficult to defeat, but if he really thought that they'd be able to manage, then it shouldn't have been so important to him to keep Naruto away in the first place. Yet he defied the hokage's judgment, murdered an innocent ally, and let everyone else think Naruto was still on his way.

It's one thing if you're in a three-person cell and someone gets caught by the enemy, so you have to leave them behind. That's understandable, and though Kakashi and his father struggled with it, that is the way the village has always been expected to operate. But blackmailing your allies, using them for your own benefit, and then sending them off to kill each other (Kabuto & glasses lady) is a whole other matter. Or how about Root inductees lulled into caring deeply for someone whom they will suddenly be forced to fight to the death... before they're even past puberty?

Shinobi are suppose to be expendable tools. That was established rather early in the series.

As I recall, that might have been said early in the series, but even Zabuza changed his mind on that one. In any case, that's hardly a way of thinking widely believed and taken for granted in Konoha. It was more of a fringe/extremist viewpoint. The Will of the Leaf entails protection of *all* villagers (though the very young and elderly came first). It wasn't just about civilians (although evidently if it met his mysterious ends, Danzou didn't mind endangering them too).

He considers dying for one's village the job of a shinobi so him sacrificing some people is no big deal. If they're not prepared for it then that's their fault. It's also clear that he held Itachi in rather high regard so obviously he did feel something for his allies.

It's not a matter of being "prepared for it." Danzou's way was to send people to *certain* death. Dying in combat may be a high-risk hazard of their occupation, but it is not part of the job description for them to be intentionally sacrificed.


If he actually cared about Itachi, he wouldn't have threatened him, and he probably wouldn't have mutilated his best friend. To him, Itachi was just a shinier tool than others.

I suppose Hitler was serving his country when he flooded the tunnels his citizens were hiding in when Berlin was invaded huh?

method's point was that Hitler took actions he thought were the right moves to make. Danzou too was willing to sacrifice innocent people in order to (supposedly) fend off enemies or thwart enemy plans. The scale on which they were brutal to their people is irrelevant.

Danzou's actions were largely all rather clear in how they were suppose to help Konoha. None of it required Danzou drumming up extra propaganda to justify. The justifications were clear. Hitler on the other hand had to make up obviously fake crap like Jews stealing children for their blood and what not. The difference is that the Uchiha actually were immediate threats and Danzou had proof of it.

Why would Danzou need propaganda when almost no one had any idea what he was doing? Also, he probably believed the "fake crap" you mention, as it's all in the propagandistic conspiracy theory book I mentioned before (Protocols), which I'm under the impression he is known to have read. Sadly, those superstitious, anti-Semitic views have been around for centuries. Regardless, I don't think Danzou was above propaganda/disinformation. He just never needed to.

[Mreaper]

I'd actually argue that Danzo had pretty good grounds for how difficult Pain would be to defeat, what with him leading an organization that had already captured the majority of the Jinchuuriki.

Originally Posted by kannazuki

"Good intentions" are nice and all, but Danzou's short-sightedness and contempt for everyone around him made him less than human.

Less than humane, maybe. I'm afraid he was quite human.

Originally Posted by narusasu1

anyone who sees everyone as expendable tools, and does no fighting himself

Are we still talking about the guy who attempted to take on both Sasuke and Tobi?

[narusasu1]

Originally Posted by Mreaper

I'd actually argue that Danzo had pretty good grounds for how difficult Pain would be to defeat, what with him leading an organization that had already captured the majority of the Jinchuuriki.

Less than humane, maybe. I'm afraid he was quite human.

Are we still talking about the guy who attempted to take on both Sasuke and Tobi?

Yeah when he had no other choice he decided to fight, oh not to mention killing the ones that were following him before that, he became a rogue himself when he done that.
He would not have gone to Tobi or Sasuke if Tobi had not of forced him, he was running back to his hiding hole but aww he did not make it

[kannazuki]

Originally Posted by Mreaper

I'd actually argue that Danzo had pretty good grounds for how difficult Pain would be to defeat, what with him leading an organization that had already captured the majority of the Jinchuuriki.

I struggle with this one. I mean if he knew Pain was going to be so ridiculous, the jinchuuriki Naruto should have been seen as their last hope. If it turned out Pain wasn't so bad then they could have easily hid him again. But actually since Danzou would have known about the code Jiraiya sent back for Naruto, maybe he was aware. In which case he intentionally endangered everyone in the village.

Less than humane, maybe. I'm afraid he was quite human.

It's a figure of speech, Mreaper. The common expression is "less than human," not "less than humane," although I suppose you could also say it that way if you really, really want to.

Are we still talking about the guy who attempted to take on both Sasuke and Tobi?

He does only fight if he thinks he absolutely has to. This is the guy who ran away from the kage meeting when he should have taken on Sasuke himself. (Sasuke should have been Konoha's responsibility, shouldn't he?) He only fought Sasuke when he was forced to. And he never really fought Tobi. He just tried to catch him up in that last ditch deathbed attack of his.

[theOrator]

@Vincent:

Spoiler

Originally Posted by Vincent1875

Naruto's not that straightforward. Anyway I think we're getting away from my point. I'm not saying that Sasuke fighting different won't factor in but I doubt it'll be that much of a factor. Sasuke won't be as lucky to be in the same situation as the Raikage. He'll be fighting multiple clones of that level at the same time. That's why fighting style starts losing significance.

Are you kidding? Naruto's one of the most straightforward fighters in the series. This isn't even an arguable point at this time in the series. I think Sasuke fighting differently will factor in, hugely, and I've stated my reason as to why. It also helps that I happen to be someone with significant fighting experience and training and so I know very much what I'm talking about. And as I've pointed out, the multiple clones becomes insignificant when you're talking about someone use attacks that can hit multiple targets, like Sasuke. Which brings me to point #2 below:

Sasuke has one omnidirectional attack that we've seen used in that manner at a range of about four feet. Why are you trying to compare an attack with a four foot range to Pein's attack? Naruto's attacks fly and are directed by stretching chakra arms. Sasuke's genjutsu is nullified by the Kyuubi helping Naruto and his clones. I'm not sure why you're even mentioning when Nagato himself got serious. Naruto didn't even use clones then. Not to mention that he had the hax powers that I made an exception for in the first place.

For one, Sasuke actually has multiple omnidirectional techs that he can use, plus he's very versatile with the ones he already has, so it's no stretch to either assume or expect that he'd be able to come up with a new one. Also, just because we've only seen him use that tech at that length doesn't mean that's the maximum length he can use it at. How could you possibly assume that the attack can only be used at that length if he's only used it that one time? Especially when we've seen Sasuke use the chidori sword/needles at greater lengths than that. I can easily compare them because they're very comparable. And I mentioned when Nagato was able to use all of the paths to show the difference between someone capable of fully using their power(s), and some restricted to only one use (6 paths).

I only say something isn't relevant when I don't think it is. That I say something is irrelevant isn't relevant. What's important is if I go on to support such a statement. I always do right after making the statement. In this case what Oonoki actually knows isn't important as Madara pretty much confirms his assumption. As for the rest this is entering agree to disagree territory. I say context implies they're talking about the perfect Susanoo. You ignore context for the generalization.

That's the thing, as I pointed out, you seem to think that every point someone brings up is irrelevant, as you use it on a consistent basis. You also have a habit of not really supporting your statement, so much as repeating the same previous point you've already made, and ignoring what the other person is saying. Case in point, you continue saying that Madara "pretty much confirms Oonoki assumption", while simultaneously accusing me of ignoring Oonoki's context. In which one is still as assumption on your part that you are, once again, simply repeating w/out really anymore justification behind it.

And the other is an outright lie, because I have addressed Oonoki's "context" numerous times now, such as when I stated that either his or Madara's comment was too vague to be able to say for certain that they were referring to Perfect Susano'o. I even supported this by pointing out that they could have just as easily been referring to his overall level of power.

Though this chapter was mostly dialogue, I thought it was a pretty significant chapter, probably the most significant one we've had in a while. Especially since it basically confirms what I've always thought about the Uchiha's coup.

[Paradice]

Originally Posted by theOrator

@Vincent:

Spoiler

Are you kidding? Naruto's one of the most straightforward fighters in the series. This isn't even an arguable point at this time in the series. I think Sasuke fighting differently will factor in, hugely, and I've stated my reason as to why. It also helps that I happen to be someone with significant fighting experience and training and so I know very much what I'm talking about. And as I've pointed out, the multiple clones becomes insignificant when you're talking about someone use attacks that can hit multiple targets, like Sasuke. Which brings me to point #2 below:



For one, Sasuke actually has multiple omnidirectional techs that he can use, plus he's very versatile with the ones he already has, so it's no stretch to either assume or expect that he'd be able to come up with a new one. Also, just because we've only seen him use that tech at that length doesn't mean that's the maximum length he can use it at. How could you possibly assume that the attack can only be used at that length if he's only used it that one time? Especially when we've seen Sasuke use the chidori sword/needles at greater lengths than that. I can easily compare them because they're very comparable. And I mentioned when Nagato was able to use all of the paths to show the difference between someone capable of fully using their power(s), and some restricted to only one use (6 paths).



That's the thing, as I pointed out, you seem to think that every point someone brings up is irrelevant, as you use it on a consistent basis. You also have a habit of not really supporting your statement, so much as repeating the same previous point you've already made, and ignoring what the other person is saying. Case in point, you continue saying that Madara "pretty much confirms Oonoki assumption", while simultaneously accusing me of ignoring Oonoki's context. In which one is still as assumption on your part that you are, once again, simply repeating w/out really anymore justification behind it.

And the other is an outright lie, because I have addressed Oonoki's "context" numerous times now, such as when I stated that either his or Madara's comment was too vague to be able to say for certain that they were referring to Perfect Susano'o. I even supported this by pointing out that they could have just as easily been referring to his overall level of power.

Though this chapter was mostly dialogue, I thought it was a pretty significant chapter, probably the most significant one we've had in a while. Especially since it basically confirms what I've always thought about the Uchiha's coup.

True but after being on break you would expect something a little more flashy instead of a flashback

[Mreaper]

Originally Posted by kannazuki

He does only fight if he thinks he absolutely has to. This is the guy who ran away from the kage meeting when he should have taken on Sasuke himself. (Sasuke should have been Konoha's responsibility, shouldn't he?) He only fought Sasuke when he was forced to. And he never really fought Tobi. He just tried to catch him up in that last ditch deathbed attack of his.

Y'know, Naruto only fights if he thinks he absolutely has to.
Ok, that's different because Danzo has subordinates who fight instead, but still, why fight if it isn't necessary?
Danzo's pretty powerful on his own, but I doubt Root would be very effective if it was comprised of just him.
As far as taking responsibility goes, yeah, he probably should have, but he was in a bit of a diplomatic tight spot.
Tobi never engaged him. Danzo conserved chakra to deal with Tobi and planned to use Shisui's eye on him, it just never came to pass because Sasuke managed to beat him.

[kannazuki]

Originally Posted by Mreaper

Y'know, Naruto only fights if he thinks he absolutely has to.
Ok, that's different because Danzo has subordinates who fight instead, but still, why fight if it isn't necessary?

Capturing Sasuke was necessary. Aside from that, thanks to the subordinates you mention, Danzou has hardly been in any danger at all. (Let's make no mistake, Danzou would have been in a lot of danger if it wasn't for his personal ANBU. I can't imagine how many enemies he must have made over the years that they'd have repeatedly risked their lives to stop.)

A kage doesn't get to behave like that. He would have had to think of his own guards' welfare too (speaking generally and not just about Fuu & Torune), risking their lives only if absolutely necessary and not for situations he callously creates himself or worse, for suicide missions. Danzou was like the "anti-hokage."

Danzo's pretty powerful on his own, but I doubt Root would be very effective if it was comprised of just him.

I don't mind Root's existence. I mind how he ran it.

As far as taking responsibility goes, yeah, he probably should have, but he was in a bit of a diplomatic tight spot.
Tobi never engaged him. Danzo conserved chakra to deal with Tobi and planned to use Shisui's eye on him, it just never came to pass because Sasuke managed to beat him.

It's not like it was always his plan to face Tobi. He conserved chakra because he knew he'd have to fight him once Sasuke was defeated. Nothing wrong with that self-preservation measure, but you can't really call it heroic/noble that he expected to face Tobi at the time. He had no choice.


If Danzou had made it safely back to Konoha, the only thing they'd have been able to do to save face with other nations would be for Konoha to arrest and turn him over, themselves. But had he survived, he was going to be a hypocrite and expect Konoha to protect him anyway.

[narusasu1]

Danzo was no good and now he is dead all I have to say, seeing as what I say don't matter in here I should just go back to talking about how it is all about Naruto and Sasuke, as I get ignored when I talk about anything else