Naruto Manga Discussion Thread 2: It's a Wonderful Sasuke

[kannazuki]

Well yes, if they had no plan. Obviously they would take what intelligence they have and come up with different scenarios to play out on the field.

[Vincent1875]

What intelligence they did have was that Oro was a sannin and could survive practically any damage. They'd have to catch Oro completely flat footed to get him in such a position.

[kannazuki]

Yes, so they would work something out in order to do that. Anyway I know you don't need me to explain this to you. If you don't think there would ever be a time when Konoha's jounin could handle it, that's fine with me.

[Vincent1875]

That's too vague to use in a discussion. That's like when people use to say "with enough experience Enel would be admiral level." You could simply fill in the blank as necessary until you have the perfect scenario.

[theOrator]

I agree w/ Vincent on this one. Kakashi was, arguably, the best Jounin they had at the time and even he saw himself as no match for Orochimaru. Perhaps after the time-skip, yes I could see that being a different story. But pre-time skip, I don't see even a team of ANBU doing anything against him. Remember, this guy was not only a sannin but also a former member of Akatsuki, and we've seen multiple teams of jounin level ninja get embarrassed by just 1 or 2 Akatsuki members.

[Vincent1875]

Well Akatsuki is known for snagging one of a hidden village's most valuable resources. When they waltz into the village to do so everyone should be embarrassed.




As far as we've seen the top ninja in Konoha are: Kakashi, Jiraiya, Guy, Asuma, Kurenai, Yamato, Kages, Naruto, and clan heads. ANBU isn't a skill ranking. Sai was ANBU and he's high chunin/weak jounin level.

[projeckt]

Speaking of Guy...can we see the damn eight gates open already? Evening Dragon...let's go!

Also, Danzo is a great character. Bring on the hate. Kiba blows. That is all. Please continue. ;]

[kannazuki]

Originally Posted by Vincent1875

That's too vague to use in a discussion. That's like when people use to say "with enough experience Enel would be admiral level." You could simply fill in the blank as necessary until you have the perfect scenario.

What, you expect me to come up with a detailed 10-point plan and the names of each participant? I'm being as specific as possible for the scope of the discussion. It doesn't matter how soon that opportunity was, as long as Oro was still targeting Konoha. I just evidently happen to have more faith in the village's jounin and strategic planning ability (Shikaku in particular) than you do.

That comparison makes no sense at all. Oro was an existential threat to Konoha, whose actions they had to be constantly wary of, until Tsunade got him to promise to back off. I'm speaking of the situation before he made that promise, when no one knew said promise was going to eventually be made. Once his promise was made, that state changed. IF that promise was never made, or it became evident he was going to break it, then Konoha would be forced to either have multi-layered defense/damage minimization plans (like with the kyuubi attack), or act first (as I described), or it would be just plain negligent and shameful.

Meanwhile, Enel was a crazy man with ridiculous powers who went into space all by himself, thereby rendering himself a threat to nobody (except perhaps those on the moon?), and as far as I'm aware he had no intention of becoming either an admiral or "admiral-level." To call Konoha and Enel comparable is plain disingenuous.

Originally Posted by theOrator

I agree w/ Vincent on this one. Kakashi was, arguably, the best Jounin they had at the time and even he saw himself as no match for Orochimaru. Perhaps after the time-skip, yes I could see that being a different story. But pre-time skip, I don't see even a team of ANBU doing anything against him. Remember, this guy was not only a sannin but also a former member of Akatsuki, and we've seen multiple teams of jounin level ninja get embarrassed by just 1 or 2 Akatsuki members.

Yes, and we've a team of mostly lower-than-jounin take down two Akatsuki members at once. We've also seen a jounin-chuunin pair (Chiyo-Sakura) take down an Akatsuki member.


Sasuke was able to outsmart Oro despite being weaker and Kabuto has now arguably surpassed Oro. Both were more-or-less from Konoha. Are you saying that even with proper training and hard work, no one could ever hope to match those accomplishments ever again? Do you think it was only because he had sharingan that Sasuke was able to take out Orochimaru?


You're both assuming what you've already seen is all that exists in that world. But there's no reason to do such a thing. If Konoha can't train at least their best and brightest to be able to overcome their most pressing threats, and for at least a few to regularly surpass those who came before them, then it's worthless as a hidden village and should hardly be seen as one of the most powerful of the five.

Originally Posted by Vincent1875

As far as we've seen the top ninja in Konoha are: Kakashi, Jiraiya, Guy, Asuma, Kurenai, Yamato, Kages, Naruto, and clan heads. ANBU isn't a skill ranking. Sai was ANBU and he's high chunin/weak jounin level.

I know ANBU isn't a ranking (and I suspect you know I know that). For someone to be a member, however, guarantees a certain level of competency.

[Vincent1875]

That comparison made perfect sense before you touched it. What Enel is doing now is completely irrelevant. Who he's a threat to is completely irrelevant. What Enel's intentions are is completely irrelevant. The statement was "with enough experience he'd be admiral level." That means you add in a number of years of fighting on the Blue Sea and then factor that in to how strong it makes him. I wasn't comparing Enel to Konoha. I was comparing your vague statement to another vague statement.

No, I'm not saying I want you to make a plan. I'd almost certainly dismiss such a thing. I'm saying that it is irredeemably vague so there's no point in trying to use it in a discussion. Pure faith and wild speculation are nothing to base a point on.

Yes, and we've a team of mostly lower-than-jounin take down two Akatsuki members at once. We've also seen a jounin-chuunin pair (Chiyo-Sakura) take down an Akatsuki member.

Not really. Naruto isn't properly ranked and he and Kakashi(who just touches kage rank) did most of the work on Kakuzu. Shikamaru took out Hidan on a battlefield he prepared ahead of time. Honestly Shikamura sucks at taijutsu and so shouldn't have had the taijutsu skills to pull off what he did against Hidan. It was kind of plot driven.

Chiyo isn't just a jounin. Chiyo, imo, was a S class fighter herself and she had more knowledge than anybody else alive about Sasori's fighting style. And at the end of the day Sasori lost because he let himself. That's not even accounting for the antidote they had.

Do you think it was only because he had sharingan that Sasuke was able to take out Orochimaru?

Sasuke waited until Oro was at his very weakest before attacking. At the end of it all we saw that it pretty much was just the sharingan that gave him the victory. Had Orochimaru been trying to kill Sasuke rather than take his body over he'd have won.

There's overcoming threats and there's hunting down one of the most well trained and smartest people in the world when you have pretty much nothing to go on.

[theOrator]

Originally Posted by kannazuki

Yes, and we've a team of mostly lower-than-jounin take down two Akatsuki members at once. We've also seen a jounin-chuunin pair (Chiyo-Sakura) take down an Akatsuki member.


Sasuke was able to outsmart Oro despite being weaker and Kabuto has now arguably surpassed Oro. Both were more-or-less from Konoha. Are you saying that even with proper training and hard work, no one could ever hope to match those accomplishments ever again? Do you think it was only because he had sharingan that Sasuke was able to take out Orochimaru?


You're both assuming what you've already seen is all that exists in that world. But there's no reason to do such a thing. If Konoha can't train at least their best and brightest to be able to overcome their most pressing threats, and for at least a few to regularly surpass those who came before them, then it's worthless as a hidden village and should hardly be seen as one of the most powerful of the five.I know ANBU isn't a ranking (and I suspect you know I know that). For someone to be a member, however, guarantees a certain level of competency.

Again, Vincent makes a good point, and I'd also like to point out that you're making assumptions as well. You're assuming that Konoha would've been able to train a group of jounins to take out one of the most dangerous ninjas it's ever produced, based on similar situations that had completely different circumstances attached to them (such as Chiyo&Sakura vs Sasori). And that's not to say that they couldn't produce top level ninja, but it's senseless to think that just any old jounin from Konoha would've been able to go toe-to-toe with Oro. The closest would've been either Kakashi or Gai, and Kakashi only after the timeskip when he achieved MS.

And notice I did say that they had potential options, and I even listed an example of someone who could've done it, but not prior to the timeskip. And even that is no guarantee. And as Vincent also pointed out, Sasuke's victory over Orochimaru was all in part to the sharingan. For one, that fight was won primarily via genjutsu (which Sasuke had a natural advantage with thanks to the sharingan). Secondly, Orochimaru was the one who'd been giving Sasuke personal tutelage for 3 years, so odds are he'd be very familiar with just about anything Sasuke could've pulled off. The fact that he waited, on purpose, until Orochimaru was weak is a clear testament that Sasuke probably would've lost otherwise.